Chris and I have had a fundamental disagreement over Trump’s statements regarding the rogue Senators’ video. Let me get the original information here, for anyone who isn’t aware.
The text reads: Americans trust their military, but that trust is at risk. This administration is pitting our uniform military and intelligence community professionals against American citizens. Our laws are clear. You can refuse illegal orders. You can refuse illegal orders. You must refuse illegal orders. Don’t give up. Don’t give up. Don’t give up. Don’t give up the ship.
Trump’s response: truthsocial.com/@WashingtonExa. It’s called SEDITIOUS BEHAVIOR AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL. Each one of these traitors to our Country should be ARRESTED AND PUT ON TRIAL. Their words cannot be allowed to stand – We won’t have a Country anymore!!! An example MUST BE SET. President DJT
Trump’s later comment: SEDITIOUS BEHAVIOR, punishable by DEATH! (later in the above thread)
Alright, with all the information at hand now here on one page, with the actual words and not just copies or reports of them… let me continue.
I will start where I always start, by denouncing the behavior of the dems in question. What they did was wrong, full stop. For the ones who have previously been in the military (I know Sen. Kelley was in the Navy and is retired, but there may be others), the Uniform Code is still in play. That means that, if you’ve EVER served in the military and have taken the Oath, then you are still held to the USC.
According to Grok: 8 U.S.C. § 2387 makes it a federal crime to engage in activities that “affect the armed forces,” such as intentionally obstructing military recruitment, enlistment, or operations. It also prohibits advising, urging, or attempting to cause insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of duty among service members. Penalties include fines, imprisonment of up to ten years, and a five-year ban from U.S. government employment upon conviction.
What 18 U.S.C. § 2387 prohibits:
Obstruction: Intentionally obstructing or attempting to obstruct the armed forces’ recruiting, enlistment, or general military operations.
Incitement: Advising, urging, or attempting to cause insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of duty among members of the U.S. military.
Distribution of certain materials: Distributing written or printed matter that advises, counsels, or urges any of the above actions.
It seems quite clear to me that the above statements made by the six falls under 8 USC 2387. Those Dems clearly stated that Trump (“this administration”) is pitting military folk against citizens. It’s simply not true. The phrase, “Don’t give up the ship,” has special meaning in the military harkening back to Cap’t James Lawrence of the USS Chesapeake in 1813, but has been expanded to cover many branches of the military. So the dems were wrong. There are ways to communicate with the military, through the chain of command, that could have stressed the idea of following lawful orders, but they chose to do it via a public video, grandstanding, and not only is that … well, grandstanding… it’s also harmful.
Many of you probably know that the military has classes that teach soldiers what sorts of things are considered legal and illegal orders. Yes, it is expected of our troops, all of them, to not follow illegal orders. However, what constitutes “illegal” is a very specific thing, and they have to learn what that is. So this holiday, instead of enjoying turkey and stuffing wherever they’re stationed, they’re going through the full lecture series again, so that everyone’s 110% sure of what “illegal orders” are. Because for an active soldier to decide an order is illegal, there are hoops to jump through, and they are putting their career and possibly their very life on the line. Doing what they did, those dems ensured our military community will be pissed and irritated for the next several months.
Now that I have that part out of the way… None of that excuses Trump from what he said. First, there are questions as to whether seditious behavior is punishable by death, even in the military. It is ABSOLUTELY not on the docket for civilians, and never has been. They can be fined, jailed, and be removed from office… but they are never under threat of death. Even in the military, there are questions. The last person to be executed for sedition in this country was Matthew Lyon in 1799. Over 200 years ago.
The dems were wrong. But bringing up the death penalty, bringing up sedition itself on a social media outlet, doesn’t fix a damn thing.
Several weeks ago, when Charlie Kirk was mowed down like autumn wheat, many of us decried the noises of the Left. Rightly so, in my opinion. Their calling Trump (and others) a Nazi, a dictator, a fascist… these all contributed to that horrible moment when Charlie was assassinated. Words have meanings, and those meanings led to Charlie’s death. The path wasn’t a straight line, but it wasn’t terribly twisty either.
Now, Trump is up there yelling that the dems committed sedition (possible) and that sedition is punishable by death (unlikely in military cases, incorrect entirely for civilians).
Folks, how is that different from the Left using violent rhetoric? I don’t see a difference. Well, not true. The Left couched it in delicate words. Trump said the quiet part out loud. That doesn’t change the fact that he said “those folks committed sedition” and “sedition is punishable by death” in very quick succession. What were people supposed to think? I no longer assume everything out of Trump’s mouth is horrible, but he’s not a great speaker at the best of times. This was not a good moment. Someone should have taken the fucking phone away from him and stopped him from tweeting.
I *cannot* ignore that Trump is using violent rhetoric here, and it is clear as day. I can’t! I would be a lying hypocrite if I simply said, “Oh, he didn’t mean to kill them.” Yeah, and the Left didn’t mean for anyone to shoot Trump, either.
The bottom line is, there are fringe elements on both sides of the aisle who are absolutely fekking bonkers. This kind of thing gets them riled up, and the next thing that happens is someone’s threatening people. And you know what? THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED. Maggie Goodlander was threatened with bombing (WMUR). I don’t like the woman, but she’s right when she says people listen to Trump.
Could this be a red flag thing, where some dipshit on the Left went out and tried to make Trump and his followers look bad? Yes, absolutely. We don’t have proof one way or the other right now, but it’s possible. I might even say it’s probable. But it started, in this case, with Trump’s words. You don’t get Maggie bombed because she stood up and made a crappy video that most of the public read as “don’t follow illegal orders” and saw nothing else (because that is entirely what’s being said). No one would bother to bomb her for saying that. It was Trump’s rhetoric that riled up whoever did it.
If you want me to let Trump off the hook when I wouldn’t let someone on the Left off the hook, then maybe I *don’t* belong here. And yes, I’ve been arguing this with Chris for days. We’ve stopped talking on several occasions. I didn’t want to write this, because I am strongly of the opinion that he’s going to be offended and hurt by it, and it’s going to lead to a fan-fucking-tastic Thanksgiving dinner. But he pressed, and I’ve written it. I’ve provided my proofs. I have all the original material there for everyone to see.
I WILL NOT allow Trump to get away with bad behavior just because he’s my President, or just because he’s doing so well in 18 other ways. It is *because* I respect him as President that I am personally required to hold him to the same standard as I hold the Left (and personally I think it should be higher, because anyone who’s President should be held to a higher standard, but I’ve been told that’s unreasonable before, so…). He does not get a pass for this.
Trump was wrong.
His being wrong in no way excuses the actions of the Dems or the Left or the bomb threat person or anyone else. It stands on its own. And I stand by it. I’d say sorry, but I’m NOT sorry, folks. He ought not have said that. It’s another example of him ripping defeat from the jaws of victory and it chaps my ass.
why is it a bunch of liberals spew something and the whole fukkin world runs with it. hypes it up and everyone just HAS to validate it????
TDS is worse than democrats vs republicans.
26% of the US is gonna kick our ass in a “civil war???? ya ok. fuk, Im tired of this constant yap yap yap from liberals. happy thanksgiving. We the People have a bunch to be thankful for… why don’t we concentrate on THAT?
We *can* concentrate on that, curby. But I think it’s morally precarious to throw stones when I’m not sure if my house is made of glass. This isn’t the dems making stuff up… Trump actually said those things. I provided proof of that. It’s not TDS; it’s fact.
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The fact that Trump didn’t mean he wanted to kill people doesn’t matter. How it was said leaves that … taste in the mouth. I know many of you disagree, and this is one we’re going to have to agree to disagree on. I’m not going to excuse him from making words that sound like threats (just the death comment btw, not his earlier one about sedition) when we’re living in an atmosphere where the left is a ticking time bomb. I really don’t want a civil war, because it will do exactly what the first one did, and pit family members and neighbors against each other. It’s bad juju. I’ll prepare for it. I don’t WANT it.
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Yes, I have much to be thankful for. I’m no longer blind to things, and I know I have a lot to learn.
I am not in 100% agreement, but I am in agreement on most points. Especially the “Trump needs to tone it down, a LOT” point. As much as I like his overall performance as President (not all of it, but most), the social media and his big mouth are ruining it.
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Now, having said that. One of the dangers of social media is no matter how crazy your idea is, someone out there will agree and support you. And, that is likely why the Dems’ “refuse illegal orders” videos are so polarizing. They can pretend they were just issuing a cautionary statement, and they were factually correct. However, either they are stupid and have no grasp of human nature, or they think we are stupid. There is really no in-between here.
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Violent rhetoric is not acceptable, I do not care about a “whataboutism” argument. Why? Not because it is bravado and makes the speaker look childish, but because someone out there will support it. What if… some MAGA right wing nutjob read Trump’s statement about sedition punishable by death, and they decide to assassinate one of these politicians? Is Trump liable? Legally, not likely, but in practical terms, yes… without his posts, no one would be thinking assassination.
I honestly don’t feel like anything Trump has said in 2.0 has risen to the label of violent rhetoric until the second half of that tweet, the part about “punishable by death.” It wasn’t a threat, and I understand that. It was a promise that if someone is convicted of sedition and is sentenced to death, Trump will support it. Those are not the same thing, and I see that. I’m not afraid of the right going nutters (even Right nutters) and shooting shit up. If the Right was going to do that, I suspect they already would have.
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But I AM afraid that the Left is going to read that and either use it as a clarion call to arms to start shooting up innocent people who happen to be conservative, or that some leftie is going to do a false flag thing and go plant bombs or do a shooting or whatever, and try to blame it on Trump. My sole comfort at this point is that most who’ve attempted to do that are dumber than a box of rocks and we’ve been able to piece together the truth. But there is no guarantee of that kind of thing, especially if the offender has gotten themselves shot dead.
Hard to take a single damn word you say seriously when you keep trying gaslight us into thinking that Trump talking shit on social media is “just as bad” as subhuman demonrat monsters MURDERING THE INNOCENT IN COLD BLOOD. I hope he finally grows a pair and starts mass executing EVERY LAST ONE of those treasonous, murderous sacks of soulless filth.
You need to go actually read what I wrote. If that’s your take, then you are exactly the reason why Trump’s message was wrong. You took it and ramped it up another notch. Because God knows that’s just what we need, right? You and people like you are why I didn’t want to write this, and all you’ve done is prove my point
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I’m taking a break from the blog. I cannot stand this kind of bull. I’m disgusted, sad, angry, and just plain fed up. Maybe what I need to do is tell you what I told the Left… Sure, guess you’re right, I’m just gas lighting… That’s what your said right? I’m no better than the left, etc etc. Why am I even here then? Why bother even trying?
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Guess what guys… Now *everyone* hates me. Just fucking great. Happy turkey day. I hope your gravy is lumpy.
Remember when Biden ‘won’ in 2020 and Trump supporters went on a vicious campaign of nation-wide terror attacks? Oh wait, that was liberals.
Remember when Jimmy Kimmel said something a conservative disagreed with and was subsequently murdered in cold blood in front of his friends and family? Oh wait, that was liberals.
Remember when Trump sent gestapo thugs to kidnap, torture, and murder political dissidents? Oh wait that was liberals.
Remember when conservatives disagreed with gov’t policy and starting doxxing and murdering federal law enforcement? Oh wait that was fucking liberals.
But please, lecture me again about how I’m “ramping up violent rhetoric” against SUBHUMAN MONSTERS WHO HAVE SPENT YEARS ON END GLEEFULLY TORTURING AND MURDERING THE INNOCENT.
TCK, calm it down, a LOT, please.
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Whataboutism is a losing argument. No one will defend bad behavior because someone else was worse. If Trump wants to troll the leftists, great. I love it. But, when that trolling crosses a line, potentially inciting someone to a violent act, that is not acceptable. Leave it to the leftists to do that. Keep the conservatives hands clean.
Yes, it was truly awful of me to suggest that mass murdering traitors and terrorist should be held accountable for the atrocities they are gleefully guilty of. I’ll make sure to remember that kind of talk isn’t welcome in a safe space like this.
I finally calmed down enough to get through your whole post. and one line stuck out to me.
“Folks, how is that different from the Left using violent rhetoric? I don’t see a difference. ”
If the above statement is true, you might legit be one of the monsters I spoke of earlier. If you genuinely can’t tell the difference between monsters who rape and torture and murder the innocent for fun, and those who have spent most of their life trying to stop that evil, then you are beyond redemption, full stop.
one thing I see in postings like this it’s difficult to phrase words as if we were having a “live” conversation.
We the People have been kicked in the balls repeatedly since obammy came on scene… and We the People are pissed about it so fuses are short and fast.
mean tweets and telling it like it is is a nice change from demecrats blaming everyone but the cause…
today is a great day to stay away from all “social media “ and be thankful for all that you have in the one country everyone but liberals want to come to and live
Right, so after having another day to calm down some more I’m going to apologize for the harshness of some of my previous comments (implying that you were the same sort of monster as the average democrat was definitely going too far). However, I will not ever apologize for calling out you or anyone else for the absurd bullshit that is claiming that a single thing Trump or his supporters has ever said or done is anywhere CLOSE to the grotesqueness of what most democrats say and do on a daily basis.
Go ahead and write me off then, TCK. I’m not going to pander to you.
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I came to this blog to give you guys an idea of what the Left thinks. Up until lately, that’s been a fairly smooth thing. People have listened, corrected me at times, but ultimately been rather nice. You have NOT been nice in this one. And frankly, I don’t really care. I think you were out of line, and I think you broke the cardinal rule of the blog (that would be “don’t be an asshole”). But I’m not the final arbiter of that; Chris is. So I guess you win. But I’m not going to argue with you. You are, at least right now, turning out to be a great example of why some people who would make awesome conservatives are absolutely terrified to come to this side of the line.
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I don’t think you have a single clue how much sweat, blood, and tears goes into changing someone’s mindset. You think getting “cured” of TDS was easy? No, TCK, it was not. It was fucking painful. I spent many days being sick to my stomach, at first over what others were saying, and then over what I myself said. It sucks. I fucking hate it. But it’s the right thing to do. But let me just say… your words above? I wanted to walk away and never return.
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What kept me here is that, here on the Right, we’re not like the Left. I don’t have to be in lockstep with you, or with Chris, or with anyone else. So I will stand over here and think Trump was crass and rude and over the line when he said “punishable by death” instead of suggesting that we prosecute them, jail them, and do whatever we can legally to get them out of office. And there’s nothing you can do about that, even if it chaps your ass. Just like I can’t do anything about you, even when you chap my ass. I can still be Conservative and stand on this side of the line, and disagree with you. And that’s just what I’m going to do.
Sorry to hear you’re taking a break, you’re the main reason I stop in.
As far as Trump- I don’t take much of what he says seriously because I know it’s mostly hyperbole.
As a former, perhaps a paroled NYer, I can tell you it is not hyperbole, it is considered normal day to day communication. In the metro NYC area, giving your friends, neighbors, and family a ration of crap is fun. It is a way to establish dominance.
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It is no different than a professional athlete trashing talking an opponent, or trying to psych them out. Folks who did not grow up in the NY metro area likely do not get it, which is why Trump gets so much bad press for his social media posts. He is still acting like a NYer to folks that have never been there, and do not understand it.
Thanks Kurt. I’m back. A bit at least. Enjoying a light bender last night and sleeping 9 hours seems to have helped somewhat.
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The problem I have is that I turn everything around. What would I think if Vance had said that? What would I think if Bush had said it? Or Obama? Or Harris? In every case, I consider it unacceptable. More than anything, I consider it unacceptable *from the office*. Only that second part, the “punishable by death” part. I may know, now, that it’s Trump making “yuge statements, the best statements ever”… but many don’t. And since I get paid the big bucks (that’d be $0, but I digress) here to tell you what people more left than y’all are thinking, I have to keep doing that. The Left doesn’t hear hyperbole. They hear death threats, outright death threats. Again, I’m here to tell people what the Left thinks and hears. That’s why Chris brought me on. That people have their panties in a bunch over my reporting what I’m told to report… *shrug* that’s not my problem, it’s theirs.
I don’t think Trump’s words were especially well-considered. (Nothing new there.) That said, the complaints about them have, to me, the distinct feel of “He hit me back first!”
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You (generically, not just Allyson) might not like his words. But I contend he wouldn’t have said them in the first place without the Dems’ video. Trump’s words are a response, not the initial provocation. I would feel a lot more strongly about it were it otherwise. (This is not “whataboutism” as I understand it; there is a direct causal relation here, not the use of one thing to justify a separate, disconnected thing.)
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But then this is the general trend of the Left, is it not? They push and push until they get a response, then cry foul without ever admitting they had any part in provoking the response.
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And, frankly, I’ve had enough of the left. If no pushback ever happens, the behavior and encroachment keep getting worse and worse.
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Anyway. Enough politics. My intent for today: put the weaponized words down, hug my family, pet my dog, and enjoy a day of peace with those I love. (Even if I don’t always like them. 😉 )
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A closing note: please remember that good friends can disagree on things, that not everyone who disagrees with you is evil, or even wrong. Part of the reason arguing with friends hurts, is we value their opinions. But have the fundamentals of your friendship really changed because of a single argument?
I want to see push back. I want to see those six dems put in jail, stripped of their positions, and barred from ever returning to them. I want Kelley to be court marshaled. I want them all to meet the law, in the fullest sense, with all the joys that go along with it (manacles, bad food, genpop, and the rest). What I don’t want is to see them die. There are very few people I want to see die. Child molesters, and those who abuse women serially. That’s about it. But punishment and push back? Abso-frickin-loutley.
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When it comes to my friendships with those on the Left, there have been fundamental changes, but they’ve been on my part. I have come to my senses, and many don’t like that. Even though my opinions on most of the stuff (gay folk, *adult* trans folk, etc etc) haven’t changed at all, or very little (and those changes are based on updated facts I’ve learned), because I no longer lock-step with those on the left, I’ve been dumped on my ass repeatedly. There is a part of my brain that continues to expect that from the Right, and when I run into stuff like this particular issue, my brain screams “see, they’re just like the leftists!” It’s wrong, my brain, but that’s where I am currently. I am still learning. I am still growing. I worry I will lose ALL my friends, because I disagree with various political or religious or whatever statements. I’ve lost most… the remaining few are precious and I do worry. All the time. 🙁
I once heard a great line about Trump. “Don’t take him literally, but do take him seriously.” Now reread his two tweets.
That said. They 100% did commit sedition. And just because the military hasn’t executed someone for it in two centuries doesn’t mean the punishment is no longer there. And most of those dem assholes ARE subject to the UCMJ. Trump called for the full legal process to be brought to bear, with the possibility of execution. That’s legal consequences to their actions. It is beyond time when traitors are made an example of.
The thing that ticks me off about Trump is that he makes posts like this and doesn’t put his money where his mouth is. Blathering on social media is for people like me, the President should be doing things.